Have leftists voted to discriminate and get rid of the people born in Saxony-Anhalt?
In fact, which antisemitic leftists are close to governing anywhere in Germany right now? Have any antisemitic left party reached 44% of the vote anywhere?
And third question you will certainly answer without fail: which party wants to talk less about the Shoah and uses nazi slogans casually in its communication?
No one who's cracked a history book open was pleased with that. Nazis were not elected democratically in the traditional sense; they never won a majority in a free national election. You're following me around in the comments because you're crashing out about being proven wrong here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49546137
>Undemocratically outlawing the opposition to secure the vote...
You are cute in thinking your argument holds, but they were not that far (33, 37%) without outlawing the opposition - which were communists directed by Stalin. You profess your hate of the left in all your other posts; if you were in 1933, would you really mind?
>Remind me of party that is calling to undemocratically outlaw the opposition to secure the vote?
The law that would allow to ban the AfD is there since 1949. Reflect why. And also reflect why Germany is a constitutional democracy and not just a democracy.
> they never won a majority in a free national election.
They legally won a plurality in the Bundestag, which is sufficient for Hitler to be legally appointed chancellor, which made everything that follows legal. Like it or not, the Nazi regime was a legal result of democracy. Democracy, neither then nor now, requires an absolute majority, which is why so many European governments are formed as coalitions.
AfD did not win a majority in Saxony-Anhalt either. Nevertheless, a person can justifiably feel disappointed by the democratic outcome, both then and now, without being dismissive of democracy itself.
> You're following me around in the comments
I am doing my part to eliminate misinformation and stupidity in the world. You're welcome.
>Most (if not all?) states and provinces will have some form of "non driving" ID available if needed. However, it is optional, costs money and requires other documentation to get it, such as an original copy of a birth certificate.
False. Every state in the US has a free voter ID option.
Even if there is no financial cost, it requires documentation and time to get voter ID. It is not issued automatically. That's why 10% of the US population doesn't have form of ID that could be used to vote and will be disenfranchised under Republican voter ID requirements. Until that issue is fixed, voter ID is not something I can support.
>and will be disenfranchised under Republican voter ID requirements.
Can you explain this further?
A person who can legally vote today, but in the future cannot vote because of election restrictions, will be disenfranchised. You are supporting election restrictions that disenfranchise 10% of the US population.
>>That's why 10% of the US population doesn't have form of ID that could be used to vote
>Correlation != causation
I never made a claim of causation. I just said that 10% of legal US voting-eligible citizens don't have ID and will therefore be disenfranchised by your proposal.
> They are issued automatically after proving eligibility.
How does that contradict my point? 10 percent of Americans do not have acceptable ID and would be disenfranchised by Republican voter ID laws. Even free ID doesn't make the operation frictionless, as you still have to provide a birth cert or citizenship doc.
Don't tell me I'm "unfactual" while presenting this kind of weak sauce non sequitur.
Incredible sense of deja vu. I feel like I was just having this same conversation with another user who has the mind of a 13 year old child.
> The point was you thought IDs for voting were not free
I guess you choose to dwell on this particular issue because it makes you feel better, but actually we're talking about Republican rules to restrict voting. The availability of ID is an issue in that discussion. Any friction involved in getting an ID, including but not limited to paying for it, will limited voting in practice.
> Proving you're eligibility to vote is not disenfranchisement.
Disenfranchisement is causing eligible voters to not be able to vote. Which is what happens when add requirements that people don't fulfill.
> Stop projecting about being confused. Everyone can see where you poorly attempted to support your objectively false points.
This statement as written is false. If you disagree, please show me where Massachusetts has a free ID card available to anyone who wants it. The only people in MA who can get a free ID are the homeless.
Yes, MA has other options for proving identity for voting purposes. But it does not have a general-purpose free ID card. If you’re going to be argumentative, and state that something “is a fact” multiple times, please make sure you’re correct before posting.
No, they do not. Getting an ID card in most places requires a fee, as well a trip to the DMV or equivalent, and providing documentation such as a birth certificate, which also requires a fee. You take this process for granted because you live a privileged life, but for many people, taking a day off work and paying $50 to get an ID is an insurmountable obstacle, especially when it offers no immediate tangible benefit in their daily lives.
If voter ID advocates feel so strongly about their position, they would support mandatory ID. The fact that they don't support mandatory ID shows their real agenda: they don't care about securing elections, they care only about excluding the undesirable class from elections.
>Getting an ID card in most places requires a fee,
False, there are no fees for voter IDs. Please find a state where you believe this is true.
>as well a trip to the DMV or equivalent
Not always.
>and providing documentation such as a birth certificate, which also requires a fee.
False. Many (all?) states provide free birth certificates for voter IDs.
>You take this process for granted
I don't take this process for granted, it's the same process across the first world.
>because you live a privileged life, but for many people, taking a day off work and paying $50 to get an ID is an insurmountable obstacle,
Nice soft bigotry of low expectations. You're so privileged that you actually believe this objectively false propaganda. The fact that you've repeated it to multiple times to virtue signal which may dissuade people to vote is a luxury belief [0]. Who believes luxury beliefs? Privileged peopled.
>If voter ID advocates feel so strongly about their position, they would support mandatory ID.
They do.
>The fact that they don't support mandatory ID
False, they do support free IDs.
>they don't care about securing elections, they care only about excluding the undesirable class from elections.
Okay, we're at that level of argument, I see. Well, you forgot to bring your evidence. A drivers license in New York costs between $64.25 and $107.5
>>as well a trip to the DMV or equivalent
> Not always.
Please explain how a an ID issued without an in-person visit is supposed to securely represent a person's citizenship status? That is the point, after all, right?
> False. Many (all?) states provide free birth certificates for voter IDs.
Absolutely not true. Even if it were true, it's still friction, which is ~10% of the American population lacks an ID that would be required to vote. If you're trying to convince me that getting an ID is free and easy, you'll need to explain first why everyone who needs such an ID doesn't already have one.[1]
> I don't take this process for granted, it's the same process across the first world.
European countries in the "first world" have automatic, mandatory IDs, which the US does not.
> virtue signal
Republicans always accuse liberals of "virtue signalling" when liberals try to do anything supporting justice. To whom am I virtue signalling? My massive Instagram following (which I don't have)? Maybe you falsely accuse other people of chasing clout because the idea of pursuing justice for its own sake is completely foreign to your own morality.
>>If voter ID advocates feel so strongly about their position, they would support mandatory ID.
>They do.
Please check your facts. Free, mandatory ID was offered as amendment by Democrats to the recent voter ID law and was voted down by Republicans. [2]
>>The fact that they don't support mandatory ID
>False, they do support free IDs.
That's not what I said. In order for voter ID laws to be fair, IDs must be not only free, but mandatory for everyone and issued automatically. Republicans have consistently voted against such a law.
>they don't care about securing elections, they care only about excluding the undesirable class from elections.
Do you really disagree with that statement? Can you then explain why the GOP has systematically disenfranchised voters? Just a few recent examples:
I absolutely agree with this statement. Somebody should tell Donald Trump (and his rabid followers), who despite your exhortation insists on lying about election fraud.
>Okay, we're at that level of argument, I see. Well, you forgot to bring your evidence.
So did you.
>A drivers license in New York costs between $64.25 and $107.5
This is about voter IDs (which are free), not drivers licenses. Now you're moving goalposts.
>Please explain how a an ID issued without an in-person visit is supposed to securely represent a person's citizenship status? That is the point, after all, right?
Many states have mobile DMV offices that are stationed within walking distance during the year, special programs where DMV employees go to the homes of those in need to verify documentation, etc.
>Absolutely not true. Even if it were true, it's still friction, which is ~10% of the American population lacks an ID that would be required to vote.
It's absolutely true. Yes, if you lose documentation such as birth certificates, you may be required to acquire them. Same as any first world country.
>European countries in the "first world" have automatic, mandatory IDs, which the US does not.
The US has this via the states, not federally.
>Republicans always accuse liberals of "virtue signalling" when liberals try to do anything supporting justice.
You're not supporting justice, you're regurgitating false propaganda.
>To whom am I virtue signalling? My massive Instagram following (which I don't have)?
Like Karens virtue signaling in the town square about being good Christians.
>Maybe you falsely accuse other people of chasing clout because the idea of pursuing justice
You're not "pursuing justice" you're regurgitating BlueSky brainrot to feel morally superior.
>Please check your facts. Free, mandatory ID was offered as amendment by Democrats to the recent voter ID law and was voted down by Republicans.
Free voter ID is provided by every Republican state. The link you posted literally states that Democrats blocked the bill LOL!
>That's not what I said. In order for voter ID laws to be fair, IDs must be not only free, but mandatory for everyone and issued automatically. Republicans have consistently voted against such a law.
That is exactly what every state has. Every Republican state has this. Find a state that does not have this.
>Do you really disagree with that statement? Can you then explain why the GOP has systematically disenfranchised voters?
Stop moving the goalposts. Your claims about voter ID are fake propaganda. Voter IDs are free in every state, you cannot deny this fact.
Did you not see the links to factual evidence that I included?
> This is about voter IDs (which are free), not drivers licenses. Now you're moving goalposts.
Most people get their in the form of a driver's license, not as a pure voter ID. If a tiny minority of people get the free option, then how is it relevant?
> Many states have mobile DMV offices that are stationed within walking distance during the year, special programs where DMV employees go to the homes of those in need to verify documentation, etc.
This makes no sense. "Walking distance" to what? I have never heard of or seen such a program. If they exist, they are not terribly effective, given that 10% of the population still lack a valid ID.
> It's absolutely true. Yes, if you lose documentation such as birth certificates, you may be required to acquire them. Same as any first world country.
That's not how it works in Europe (at least in Netherlands and Czech Republic, where I have experience). In that case, the government already has your birth cert, so they don't force you to acquire it and then give it back to a different part of the government. Only the US sets up these additional obstacles. Which, again, is why 10% of Americans don't have a valid ID, a fact that you refuse to address.
>>European countries in the "first world" have automatic, mandatory IDs, which the US does not.
> The US has this via the states, not federally.
Can you please name a single US state that automatically issues ID to all voters? I can't.
>>Republicans always accuse liberals of "virtue signalling" when liberals try to do anything supporting justice.
> You're not supporting justice, you're regurgitating false propaganda.
What about "making sure that eligible voters and vote" is not about justice?
> Like Karens virtue signaling in the town square about being good Christians.
Not an answer to my question.
> You're not "pursuing justice" you're regurgitating BlueSky brainrot to feel morally superior.
You already said that, but you are just making baseless accusations. You don't know my mind. Let me ask you this: do you categorically refuse the possibility that anyone pursues justice for its own sake? Were MLK Jr, Ghandi, the Sufragettes, the abolitoinists all just "virtue signalling", or do you think that some people actually care about making the world a better place?
It's really hard to take your argument seriously when doubt the good faith of arguments made with support facts that help people and support democracy. Clearly no one in the MAGA camp could be accused of "virtue signalling" because they have no virtues. On the contrary, MAGA members publicly signal their devotion to groupthink by willfully blocking out unpleasant facts and pledging fealty to a prodigious liar.
> Free voter ID is provided by every Republican state. The link you posted literally states that Democrats blocked the bill LOL!
You keep on ignoring important words in my comment. In this case, you specifically edited out "automatic" and "mandatory." The absence of those words is why Democrats blocked the bill.
> That is exactly what every state has. Every Republican state has this. Find a state that does not have this.
Literally no state has this. I live in a red state and I have to go in and request a voter ID, using appropriate evidence. They are not issued automatically. I challenge you to find any evidence supporting the idea that any state automatically issues ID.
> Stop moving the goalposts. Your claims about voter ID are fake propaganda. Voter IDs are free in every state, you cannot deny this fact.
Calling it propganda doesn't make it untrue. You have failed to address the many examples of disenfranchisement at the hands of the GOP.
My conclusion, based on the evidence presented in this thread: Either you are a terrible debater who consistently disregards evidence and arguments presented by the opponent, or you are debating in bad faith and intentionally ignoring evidence that disagrees with your preconceived conclusion. Which is it?
>Did you not see the links to factual evidence that I included?
You did not link to any factual evidence that made any claim contrary to the facts: Every state has free voter IDs. This is a fact.
>Most people get their in the form of a driver's license, not as a pure voter ID. If a tiny minority of people get the free option, then how is it relevant?
So not only do you now admit that free options exist, you're trying to claim they're irrelevant. Millions of people get free voter IDs, they're not irrelevant. This is a fact you just admitted to, which was my original claim. I accept your defeat.
>This makes no sense. "Walking distance" to what? I have never heard of or seen such a program. If they exist, they are not terribly effective, given that 10% of the population still lack a valid ID.
"I haven't heard about it so it doesn't exist."
>That's not how it works in Europe (at least in Netherlands and Czech Republic, where I have experience). In that case, the government already has your birth cert, so they don't force you to acquire it and then give it back to a different part of the government.
That's exactly how it works in Europe, Czech Republic. If you don't have a copy, you request a new one.
To acquire the machine-readable version of the card, a citizen must present either a currently valid card (in case of renewals), or a currently valid passport, or a birth certificate and proof of citizenship.[0]
Birth certificate. Sound familiar?
>so they don't force you to acquire it and then give it back to a different part of the government.
That's not how it works in the US, you do not give away your birth certificate to a different part of the government.
>Which, again, is why 10% of Americans don't have a valid ID, a fact that you refuse to address.
That's not why 10% don't have ID nor did I fail to address it. School is mandatory in the US yet 15% of Americans are illiterate.
>Can you please name a single US state that automatically issues ID to all voters? I can't.
Not every European country has mandatory IDs. Like Europe, every state in the US has free voter IDs. Every single state, you cannot deny this fact.
>Not an answer to my question.
You don't need a known audience to virtue signal to.
>do you categorically refuse the possibility that anyone pursues justice for its own sake?
You're not pursing justice, you're spew false propaganda and fighting a problem that doesn't exist.
>Clearly no one in the MAGA...
Whataboutism.
>You keep on ignoring important words in my comment. In this case, you specifically edited out "automatic" and "mandatory." The absence of those words is why Democrats blocked the bill.
That's not why they blocked the bill.
>Literally no state has this. I live in a red state and I have to go in and request a voter ID, using appropriate evidence. They are not issued automatically.
No country issues an ID automatically to anyone who makes a request. The ID is issued to you automatically after proving who you are. You don't need to petition the state with an attorney or pay a fee.
I'll say it again, every state in the US has free voter IDs. EVERY state, red and blue.
QED.
>Calling it propganda doesn't make it untrue.
Your statement was false, untrue. You finally admitted above that you were wrong.
>My conclusion, based on the evidence presented in this thread: Either you are a terrible debater who consistently disregards evidence
Poor conclusion. Find a single state that does not have free voter IDs.
>intentionally ignoring evidence that disagrees with your preconceived conclusion.
No evidence disagrees with my original statement of fact:
Every US state issues a free voter ID cards. Even Republican strongholds.
> You did not link to any factual evidence that made any claim contrary to the facts: Every state has free voter IDs.
You keep on repeating that. Your brain is hyper-focused on "every state has free voter ID card". Meanwhile you are consistently ignoring the context: 10% of Americans don't have voter ID of any kind. No state issues voter ID automatically. Those Americans will be disenfranchised under a Republican voter ID law. Until you can solve the disenfranchisement issue, voter ID requirement cannot be supported.
> So not only do you now admit that free options exist, you're trying to claim they're irrelevant.
Whether or not they cost money is not the point. The point is whether getting them is an obstacle that will disenfranchise legal voters.
> I accept your defeat.
Lol are you literally 13 years old? You definitely act like it.
>>This makes no sense. "Walking distance" to what? I have never heard of or seen such a program. If they exist, they are not terribly effective, given that 10% of the population still lack a valid ID.
> "I haven't heard about it so it doesn't exist."
You didn't actually address my question. I asked "walking distance to what" because that obviously matters. And I didn't say they don't exist, I said that they aren't effective.
> That's exactly how it works in Europe, Czech Republic. If you don't have a copy, you request a new one.
No. In the Czech Republic, they are issued automatically because the government already has your birth certificate. Because IDs there are universal, there is a much lower barrier to entry. You dont know what you are talking about.
> That's not how it works in the US, you do not give away your birth certificate to a different part of the government.
You don't "give it away" and I didn't say that you did. You need to acquire your birth cert, then show it to the DMV. I don't even know why you would even argue this. You're just arguing to be argumentative. Again, you have the mind of a 13 year old.
> That's not why 10% don't have ID nor did I fail to address it. School is mandatory in the US yet 15% of Americans are illiterate.
Completely irrelevant comparison. In European countries, everyone has voter ID because the IDs are issued automatically, which does not happen in the US.
> You don't need a known audience to virtue signal to.
You are sad, pathetic person.
> You're not pursing justice, you're spew false propaganda and fighting a problem that doesn't exist.
Sad, without morals. Your low estimation of your fellow man reflects the weak state of your own conscience. You assume (falsely) that everyone is as self-interested as you are. I hope you find someone who can show you beauty and kindness in the world.
> That's not why they blocked the bill.
Citation needed.
> No country issues an ID automatically to anyone who makes a request. The ID is issued to you automatically after proving who you are. You don't need to petition the state with an attorney or pay a fee.
That's not what I said. Stop putting words in my mouth. At the point I can only include that you are intentionally misinterpreting me in order, I don't know, win internet points or just fill up your vacuous life.
Debating someone who is not interested in actually understnading the world but just incessantly repeating themselves like a dying insect is not rewarding for me or educational for you. So please grow up. Until then, I won't continue this conversation.
Giving condolences to Charlie Kirk isn't "support", remigration is not the deportation of non-white citizens, Brendan Eich did not donate to the kiwifarms, etc. Everything is skewed and stripped of any nuance.
But keep going, like you say we're not living in the neo-liberal Obama-era anymore. Ten years ago it was a mighty struggle to convince people of how corrosive your ideology was. Keep annoying everyone, keep pushing everyone who doesn't fully comply with your ideology away.
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